ATP Live Episode 55 - ft @reepal and @ricksteeezy

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http://www.twitch.tv/avoidingthepuddle

Comments

[RandomTekkenFan]

It's completely uneccessary to have 100/5. You'll never use a fraction of that. Even if you had a big house and several familymembers who were streaming movies and games and downloading music all at the same time, you would still not break 30/5 barriere. Look it up!

Also, I'm afraid our celebration about T7 was premature. Namco is still at very early stage in development, still doing conceptart and whatnot. They're just deciding on which characters to include. I bet we won't see T7 game for atleast two years! At least! I think there will a arcaderelease in 2016. And then we'll get a consolerelease one year later.

[VayneCalibur]

Launchers being the main goal at tekken and the damage overall ( Rage included ), which really makes no sense at all really is something important to discuss when we are looking up to tekken 7 but to me it's not what really made Tekken unpopular.

I'm a hardcore player and I love tekken, it's my main game actually. I do play it offline aswell as online and to be honest what really makes these two last tekkens (t6,ttt2) less popular is the "Tracking" system.

Let's be honest for, what really makes the difference between Tekken and the other fighters is the "3D system" (SC not included which is amazing too) . I've been playing tekken since T3 and my favourite game is T5 DR ( actually still playing sometimes ) and the main reason is because it is what I call a 3D fighter. I can move however I want not worrying about tracking and that makes the game way more fun, balanced and overall realistic imo.

Tracking is what really kills this series imo. Tracking is really bugged and really makes tekken not being 3D, and of course less balanced which reminds me of Steve's in T6 (Broken as awlays just not in Tag 2) that guy really pisses off when talking about tracking. You're playing tekken which is supposed to be 3D however you can't sidestep most of his moves due to tracking and that is what really kills a 3D fighter game.

I must excuse myself for my English since it's not my native language but I really love Tekken and It's really frustrating the way this game has been going. Not to mention tekken community really sucks, probably even more than Lol's community...

Cheers from Spain and hope we do get a "Real" Tekken soon and make the series be alive again.

[Cunty McCunt]

I really agree with VayneCalibur. Steve is just impossible to sidestep, which is quite retarded when talking about a 3D fighter.
It's so random where a move tracks, and it's complete bullshit that it's not sufficient to sidestep, but you have to sidewalk in the right direction sometimes.

Fuck rage! Fuck comebackmechanics! Fuck long combos which can be longer with bound and wallcarry and reset and whatnot, which we all know is completly off the charts in TTT2. If they wanna include bound and long ccombos, we really shoud have a combobreaker of some sort like RIP says.

It could be a meter that gets filled, say when you take hits or do unsafe moves. And when it's full, you could use that either to break combos or that your next hit is a counterhit. This is gold, Jerry!

Fuck all you cunts who don't agree!

[Cunty McCunt]

A arabian terrorist nicknamed Cunty McCunt on line died after rapeing his mom. he was charged with abuse even though he had cancer.

[Starman]

Bound did not add anything important and should be removed. It just slowed down gameplay. Spike enders already exist and add 'branching' depth to juggle meta-game. Tekken 5DR hit the right balance and just lacked a functional online. I personally enjoy Revolution, and feel it is probably the next best solution to making tekken mainstream and relevant. If it had a retail version, with versus mode, it would sell very well.

[YourBigFatUglyMama]

^^ Yeah, I think Tekken Revolution would sell pretty well because it's easy for the casuals. They don't get juggled for 20 seconds straight and lose the round due to a reset. But I think Harada knows the hardcore crowd ain't too happy with that game. Hope he realizes that the RPG element (the whole level up your character) have to go!

[Zorchdar]

Less characters, small combos, simplified mechanics, sounds like tekken 4. Hopefully they don't go that route.

[Turtle]

This is a list of suggestions coming from a long time (as in from Tekken 1) casual-to-average player concerning the everlasting (and important) topic of increasing the accessibility for new and casual players and the typical walls they come to (and abandon the game) in my experience, as well as my own observations concerning the difficulty of execution. I also noticed and learned a lot about the game from attempting to teach others directly and taking note of what they have most trouble with.

I am writing this in hope that wonkey, aak, rip, 'stah or aris (or all) will read this and when harada comes for the interview maybe these suggestions might be voiced, or at least to hear some of these suggestions being talked about and voiced so that we can get more people to play tekken. Also treat this as an insight from a person that loves the game, plays it with friends but isn't as competitive.

This will be a long text. Abandon hope all who proceed.

Casual and beginner players are referred to as players, competitive and veterans are referred to as veterans.

To competitive players this will probably be a list of pointless additions that do not effect the overall game much, but it is those little things that push the new players away and make casual players unwilling to make that step into more serious competitive play.

English is not my primary language.
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Movement/ Back-Dash
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I noticed over and over that many casual and beginner players (in the rest of text just referred to as players, while competitive and veterans will just be referred to as veterans) don't get that they should hold the second back after they back-dash, while it is intuitive in itself many players miss that and get punished for back-dashing this motivates them to almost always abandon that section of the game, and get overwhelmed by the players who simply are better to the point where they get frustrated because they don't see the way out.

Suggestion:
Make it so that at the end of the back-dash there is a neutral guard which will take the first attack, in an similar way it is when the character is standing still. This should of course only work for high/mid attacks, so no auto-blocking stuff.

On the topic of back dashing, most players are unable to do korean back dash and more often than not are not even aware of it. While the effectiveness the regular back-dash increases somewhat with the distance from the other character in the close range is not as effective as the korean back dash is, therefore it makes players unable to match stronger players since they have limited movement options.

Suggestion:
Improve the speed of the back-walk and improve the back-dash range but in such way that it
is still isn't better from the korean back dash but that the gap between it is much smaller than it already is. This makes it easier defensive inclined players to get into the game.

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Side Step
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Many beginners find it hard to use side step, the attempt to fix this was made in tekken 4 but it sacrificed other options so it was a no go. It just might be me, but I liked side step in tekken 3 where it was really a powerful tool.

Solution:
While it would be unbalancing to introduce tekken 3 sidestep back the side step should be somewhat buffed. Maybe by introducing a sort of offensive and defensive side step. Defensive sidestep would have a larger window but it will have slightly more recovery and it will pull the character back more while the offensive should stay like it is. The defensive side-step could be done by pressing u,u or d,d (side walk would be u,U, and d,D), while the regular side-step should stay the same.

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Execution
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I noticed a critical point for many beginner players which I have been teaching to play tekken and that is the inability to execute the moves they like visually. Some people simply are unable to do moves such as half circle forward (hcf) etc. It seems superficial but at the beginning every little thing matters when having a person interested int the game, the more interested and motivated he is the less one will be affected by the aspects one dislikes or is unable to do. For example note that many people where de-motivated by the fact that they are unable to do wave dashing as much as they where unable to do some cool looking grabs.

Suggestion:
Moves that include a hcf motion should have alternative movements. For example instead of doing hcb f+1 (giant swing) make it so that it is executed by doing qcb, f+1 it is still advanced enough that it satisfies the "effort invested - satisfaction" cycle but it is easy enough for a person to do after learning about the qcb,qcf concepts that are not that hard (but can take a surprisingly big amount of time to learn on a controller, some even have problem with diagonals, df bf for a good amount of time).

The same goes for the isw (instant shining wizard, [WR_fff]+2+4) when done as a combo finisher. Instead of such high requirement for a finisher why not changing it in a f,f+2+4 when the opponent in the air.

The idea is to make the execution of the moves easier but not plain, the best way to notice this is to have testers be people who don't know how to play fighting games then observe how they perform movements on a controller, make them go trough the move list and notice how much time will they devote to the move before they give up after being shown how the move looks.

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Juggling
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Every new tekken makes the jugles easier to perform, while I was not able to notice that in full, I was able to notice it mostly between tekken 5 and tekken 6 (console releases) by watching beginners have a much easier time doing juggles the bound system also helped because the luncher-filler-bound-finisher provided gratification for the players that are usually unable to confidently land the finishers (A bound is usually easier to get it hit than the finisher before). So this is more of a praise.

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The Gap
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The gap I refer is mostly the execution gap more evident in other games than tekken. Lets for example pick Street Fighter. A person starts playing the game and the most interestingly looking character for that person is Zangief but then in order to enjoy the character you should be able to perform his super moves, a person is unable to, a person gives up from the game.

I think that execution effect on the gap between the veteran and a player should be much smaller, while the gap of knowledge, reflex, strategy and tactics should be more pronounced. Because some dimensions of the gap are motivating while others are simply disarming and will make the player give up.

I noticed that beginners grasp the concept of footsies, positioning and punishing very fast once they are able to do the moves, juggles and back-dashing with ease. Tekken is very intuitive because of its controls, it has always been its strength.

This will also provide veteran players more challenge now that the execution gap is lowered.

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Just Frames
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Just Frame moves are one of those moves that cause frustration to beginners in the similar way the hcf, hcb movements do because they look cool but they are unable to do them.

Suggestion:
Provide a just frame and non just frame version of the moves (it isn't much of a problem is something slightly different comes out, like with f,f+2,2 and f,f+2:2). This also ads a interesting random effect where a person may accidentally do a just-frame version and feel good about it.

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Characters
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Because of intuitive controls and the fact that characters share many types of moves it is easy for a player once used to the system to get faster into the other characters. A thing about casual player is that more often than not they will not main a character but use either a bigger set of character or even all of them since when you don't have much knowledge about the character a person gets bored and picks another one. Maining a character is mostly what competitive inclined players will do, or the casual players that are ready to make the next step into more advanced levels.

Because of the way the characters are made (some characters have better high moves, or low moves, or faster moves, or more powerful moves) with every character used a player gets introduced to new concepts (sway, stance, wave dash, back turned etc) because each character is based on different concepts and simple moves will make use of those concepts.

In that light a big diverse number of characters is a good idea because it is both fun and necessary
to keep the interest of the never players long enough to get them deeper into the game. In other words, if the game has smaller amount of character a beginner will go trough them faster then it is needed for a person to get hooked on the game so to speak.

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Audio/Visual indicators
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This is more a note on how well the visual indicators are done in tekken, it is always clear when a move is blocked by both the sound and the visual effect.

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Wake up
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The wake up in tekken was always the most interesting part of the game because of the amount of things that lead into it. The problem with beginners is that since they are so eager to get into action and perform moves rather than stand look at the opponent doing all the fun stuff, they mash and try to get as quickly as they can, others backroll.

Suggestions:
While I am against doing anything to the backroll since it is so integral to the wake up game the one
suggestions to make is to make it a back-dash motion rather than hold back motion. The reason for this is because beginners will tend to hold back as a defensive (somewhat unconscious) gesture.

Also rather than having all four face buttons have the tech-roll ability limit it to either 3,4 or 1,2
so that others may be used for other options.

Also the 3,4 wake up (low kick and mid kick) should be buffed in a way of damage or utility since their usability has greatly diminished since tekken 3 without he additions of much better defensive options it was also a good idea do widen the tech-roll window by the way in the later games. It would also be a good idea to change the generic look of the move and make it based on the character (while still retaining the low, mid guess).

For example Lei's 3 from the ground should be a sweep into stance. Dragunov 4 could be a kick-into-throw etc. The additional grounded options such as kuma's 1+2 and marduk's 2 and d+2 where
good ideas.

The other two buttons (probably 1 and 2) in the wake up situations should be the the roll into the background and foreground (side specific like side step) while the character specific options should be shifted to 1+2 and 3+4. Also a character should not be able to tech-roll from the 1 and 2 so that players don't tech by accident in the heat of the batter when they wanted to just roll.

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Shoulder buttons
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When I am playing on the controller I always use shoulder buttons for the 1+2, 3+4, 1+4 etc. I have been always unable to consistently do them (on the stick it is another thing).

This is mostly a continuation to the execution topic I have been dragging trough this text. The total number of usable button combinations is 6 and there is only 4 shoulder buttons. In tekken tag 2 this is also raised to by including the 2+tag throw etc. So it would be a good idea do add the right analog directions as 4 other slots. In other words if a player presses up on the right analog stick it should to a different command than the one done from the down, left or right.

I was able to hook one player on tekken by showing him how to do many of the kings multi-throws by using buffering (hold 1 and press 2+4 to get 1+2+4 for example etc) and shoulder buttons. I would not have been able to do that without them.

This will also lead into:

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Multi throws
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The one cool thing about multi throw is that they are basically a juggle with an option to get out if you guess correctly. The problem is that while some of the multi throws can be buffered a big number of them is made so that it is almost impossible to do them on the controller (with or without shoulder buttons).

Solution:

Make multi throws easier but not plain easy. Do this either via buffering or my simplifying it from 1+2+3 to 2+3 or something like that.

Lets take bruce's example

Instead of

f,N,d,d/f+1+4
= 1+2,1+2,1+2
= (3_4),1+2+3
== 1,3,1+2+4
== 2,4,1,1+2+3

f,N,d,d/f+2+3
= 3+4,3+4
= 4,3,4,1+2+3

Make it into: (buffer version)

f,N,d,d/f+1+4
= 1+2,1+2,1+2
= 1+2+4,(3_4)
== 1,4,1+2+4
== 2,3,1+2+3

f,N,d,d/f+2+3
= 3+4,3+4
= 4,3,4,1+2+4

Or make it into: (simple version)

f,N,d,d/f+1+4
= 1+2,1+2,1+2
= (3_4),1+2
== 1,3,1+3
== 2,4,2+4

f,N,d,d/f+2+3
= 3+4,3+4
= 4,3,4,1+2

I mean there is really no need to make it that complicated it the character already has that move option since it is basically his strength.

The idea behind the buffer version is that the ending input of the last throw should be used as a buffer to the next throw. So at the 1+2,1+2,1+2 one could just hold the last 1+2 and add the +4 then either do 3 or 4 etc.

Multi throws in general are much easier to do on an arcade stick but note that most if not all casual players use controllers.

Also there should be a tutorial in the next tekken that introduces the player to the concept of buffering this way (explaining that if you hold 2 and pres 4, it is like you have done 2+4)

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CONCLUSION

This is a long list of little tweaks, because most don't understand that it is not big changes that make the game more accessible it is the tweaks that mostly go unnoticed but even though the beginner doesn't know what it is, because it feels more approachable.

I am of strong opinion that execution or complex inputs should not be that much of a requirement when playing a fighting game.

Also note that the reason people don't get attached to the game is not because they lack commitment as much as there is so much to chose from not only from the fighting game stand point but from the games in general and people don't always have much time to devote to some game, and when they do the curve should be as smooth as possible.

The other problems I tend to see is that advanced players and generally developers look at making the game more accessible like those people (that they want to attract) are stupid and generally retarded, so they make auto-combos for them and all those things, when the thing they really need to do is lower but not stupify the execution gap, so that other aspects of the gap (knowledge, etc) can be better approached.

[Forest]

100/5 haha "Turbo" internet

[Turtle]

Correction to the previous post

From the execution part:

For example note that many people where de-motivated by the fact that they are unable to do wave dashing as much as they where unable to do some cool looking grabs.

Should be:

For example note that many people where NOT de-motivated by the fact that they are unable to do wave dashing as much as they where unable to do some cool looking grabs.

(Implying the most if not all beginners don't get the point of wave dashing until much later)